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Wacky Packages cloth series debate
The experts debate the cloth release date.
From:  CHEAPIOS  Mar-16 8:09 pm  
To:  Char Boy (GREGGRANT) 

What is the evidence that the cloth stickers came out around the 4th or
5th series?

From:  Char Boy (GREGGRANT)   Mar-16 8:39 pm  
To:  CHEAPIOS unread 

I think you can make a good case for this by looking at the wrapper, box,
and sheet codes.  It's strange that nobody can remember...

From:  SLAYSKOOL  Mar-17 4:13 am  
To:  Char Boy (GREGGRANT)  
 
Greg, it makes absolutely NO sense cloth stickers came out between the 4th
and 5th Series,. Why? Plain and simple, because companies cease and
desisted 1st Series titles WAY before the 4th Series was even put on the
presses. If you actually think that companies like Johnson and Johnson,
Liggett, Canada Dry, and General Foods would have waited to send C & Ds
for no apparent reason, then you are chewing way too much gum. And to
think they printed up this swill only to be stored in a warehouse is also
ridiculous. Why? Because 1) Wackys were raging and to sit on surplus while
the fad raged would have been stupid on Topps' part, 2) because Topps
would NEVER blatantly go against C & Ds unless it was by accident and you
can bet they were paying attention to the C & Ds. Topps was not a house of
idiots. They calculated most things pretty well. They were publicly traded
and you can bet paid attention to their stockholders. 

If you are just going on the fact that the code sequence falls into the
line, then look at the tattoos box and the 9th Series box. Both of those
have illogical codes as well. 

In fact, let me throw THIS at you. Let's say the 2-digit number AFTER the
project code (the 3-digit number) is the God code. Since the cloth box has
a "37" and the 1st-16th have a "40", the cloth box came first. In fact, it
was one of the "earlies" with the Wacky Ads and Die Cut boxes which also
had "37"s.In fact, I think it was SO damn early that Topps just went back
to the archives and copied the Die Cut box' design since that was what
they had readily available as a model. 

From:  CrazyZooKeeper (CRAKOLA)  Mar-17 6:54 am  
To:  SLAYSKOOL  
 
Hi Paul, 
First I want to say that without the Gallery and your research, we would
be completely in the dark regarding the issue date. Thank you again for
the amazing effort you have put forth for all of us. However, I have to
agree with Greg (Char Boy) on the timing of the cloth stickers because of
the following: 

If you use the sheet codes you will discover they pretty much unlock
everything. 

Briefly a sticker sheet code consists of "4-xxx-05-01-4th digit of
year" The corresponding checklist sheet substitutes a 3 for the 4 and a 43
for the 05. The box code (when a new box is made for a series and not just
reused from a previous series) substitutes a 1 for the 4 and a 40 for the
05. The exceptions are the odd shaped boxes which substitute a 37 for the
40 with the exception to the exception being the 7th gumless. The wrapper
sheet code is a little more complicated with the 85 and 21 wrappers, but
they still follow the xxx for the series they were originally issued with. 

Thus, it is the xxx section that is indicative of the order of
issue. TOPPs did not appear to be totally anal about the numbering and the
following 2 exceptions exist: 

The 9th series appears out of place at 407 between the 465 8th and the 477
10th. However, it could just be a typo for 470 which would fit
perfectly. The other exception may show that 10-12 were printed at the
same time as 10th is 477, 11th is 478, and 12th is 476, with the 12th
sheet being out of order. This would also probably confirm that 10th was a
77 sticker sheet. 

If these theories are accepted, the cloth sheet at 4-456-44-01-3 would
indicate that it was printed in 1973 and most likely between the 4th
series at 454 and the 5th series at 460. The 44 instead of the 05 would be
in line with the checklist stock change to 43 as indicating another type
of print stock. 

Due to its very limited run, TOPPS may have ignored the C&Ds or they may
not have come in at the point of printing. Remember all of these items had
survived from 67 to 73 so a month or two more for a limited test run may
have seemed a reasonable risk. Anyway, I'll call you and explain it in
further detail. 

From:  Char Boy (GREGGRANT)   Mar-17 9:12 am  
To:  SLAYSKOOL   
 
> companies cease and desisted 1st Series titles
> WAY before the 4th Series was even put on the presses

How do you know this for sure?  

Is the following scenario possible then?  While the 1st was going strong
and they realized this was going to be huge, they quickly started planning
later series, long before the first was done.  So they developed the
yellow -436- wrapper then, knowing they wouldn't use them until the red
ones were finished, which happened sometime in the 3rd series.  They also
determined codes for series 1-4 sheets and boxes as these series were
already in the works, even while the 1st was still being sold.  And then,
suddenly, they started running out of sticker paper, we know they went to
tan and ludlow because of this, but they also had cloth paper lying
around, we know they had stocked it because there are 1972 cloth baseball
stickers.  We know they would have wanted to totally max out the 1st
series demand before going on to second series.  Therefore, in order to
get out more 1st series stuff to fill the orders they were scrambling to
fill, they threw together the cloth series.  So this would have been done
near the end of the first series and run for a short time, like the 1st
tans.  This makes as much sense to me than it coming out before the first
series, and this scenario makes the code orders make sense.

From:  Char Boy (GREGGRANT)   Mar-17 12:43 pm  
To:  CrazyZooKeeper (CRAKOLA) 
 
I think what I have to do is to have a link off the page to a list of
competing theories and their respective evidence - and an appeal for
anybody to come forward who might have more information.  The only thing
we agree on for sure is that they came out in 1973.  I guess there are
several main theories, 

* they came out before the 1st as a test 
   -supported by cease and desist timing (still waiting for evidence of
this)
* they came out just at the end of the 1st when they ran out of other
paper 
   -similar to the tans and luds, and consistent with cease and decist
timing
* they came out sometime between the 4th and 7th 
   -supported by sheet, wrapper, box code information
 
From:  BANDACHES  Mar-17 5:57 pm  
To:  CrazyZooKeeper (CRAKOLA)  
 
For what it is worth, the 5th series shipping case is dated 03/14/74  

From:  SLAYSKOOL  1:15 am  
To:  Char Boy (GREGGRANT) 
 
Okay, then let's look at your scenario so that I can debunk it. 
If you are saying that the cloth stickers came out between the 4th and 5th
Series, the following would had to have happened: 

1: Topps developed and printed up cloth series boxes, wrappers and stock
BEFORE cease and desist letters came in for the 1st Series and then sat on
them for at the very least 2 months. 

It's the only way your theory works. If this isn't true, then you really
have to stretch. Like so: 

2. If untrue, then Topps cared less about the C & Ds and proceeded with
series development on titles that had been C & Ded. This we know would
never happen. There is ample evidence which I will not go into here which
shows Topps took C & Ds VERY seriously. 

3. Quacker Oats is the key here. It is on the cloth sticker artwork and
wrappers. If the stock hadn't been already run, then the only way it was
to be included in the artwork is that by the time it WAS run, Quacker Oats
had not been C & Ded. We know that Quacker was C & Ded quite early on by
its absence on the Wacky Wall Poster, which was developed before the 3rd
Series was issued. 

4. It doesn't make sense for Topps to go in and retweak with the checklist
artwork in 2 small ways when all they could have done was rerun the
checklists. It makes more sense that the cloth checklists were developed
FIRST and changed once the 1st Series stickers got underway...especially
when they saw the misspelling of Mrs. Kleen. It makes no sense to change
it to an error, it makes more sense they corrected it. 

5. Think about this one. You get a cloth series pack. You have never seen
Wackys before. You get this checklist with a cryptic design on the
reverse. What the hell is this? Beats me. As you start opening more packs,
you begin to see it is a puzzle. But there is nothing to notify you it is
a puzzle. So what does Topps do? They add a tag line on the checklist that
says "COLLECT THE ENTIRE PUZZLE ON THE BACK OF CHECKLIST CARDS". It was an
improvement. There is no reason why they would have eliminated that for
the cloth series when the puzzles were still being used. It makes more
sense that the tag line was first OMITTED for the cloth series and then
ADDED to Series 1-16, never to be omitted again. Ben Solomon was not a
moron nor scatterbrain. As time wears on, we see that EVERYTHING at Topps
had a reason for being. 

6. To me, the cloth series was the first issue especially when you look at
the box design. They went back to the most recent thing on file, the die
cuts and copied the box design. Easy as pie. 

7. We have to look at the "37" and "40" digits. Why would they go "40",
"37" and then back to "40", especially when the 7th gumless series which
has the same design is a "40" box. Once again, it makes no logistical
sense. They abandoned the "37" code abefore the 1st Series. 

8. It makes no sense for a limited run of stickers which were already
produced. Topps' marketing people were balls to the wall by the time the
4th Series hit. There'd be no reason for a limited run in the thick of it
all. They already had a hit. 

9. And finally, FINALLY, the cloth sticker sheet reflects the same layout
as the die cut sheet, NOT the traditional 1-16 sheets. Why? Because IT WAS
RUN FIRST! The cloth sticker issue reflects the die cut set in more ways
than the 1-16 counterparts. It is another point toward believeing it was
run before the traditional 1st Series. 

I still contend the Cloth Series was a very limited run at the very start
of the 1st Series, before ANY C & Ds came in. They were so limited that
that is why the checklists are tough to find. Your theory Greg doesn't fit
AT ALL with the logistics of production. To recap: 

1. No way would Topps print up stock and sit on it. 
2. No way would Topps print up stickers that had been C & Ded. 
3. No way would Topps invest money and time into making checklists
different instead of just going back to the archives. 

So let me ask you this one question. In your theory, when abouts was the
cloth sticker series run on the presses? 

From:  CrazyZooKeeper (CRAKOLA)  4:29 am  
To:  BANDACHES unread 

I'd love to get the information from your shipping case collection. That
is one unique collection. Is this date stamped on the case. It's not a
code number, is it?!?! My recollection of the first 8 series issue dates
are as follows, so this March date would be near the end of 5th series
shipments: 
Series Date 
1 March '73 
2 May or June '73 
3 September '73 
4 November '73 
5 Mid January '74 
6 Late March '74 
7 May or June '74 
8 August '74 

From:  CrazyZooKeeper (CRAKOLA)  4:47 am  
To:  SLAYSKOOL 
 
Paul, 
Quacker was not removed from the boxes until series 6 and still lingered
into 7 when the boxes were reused (showing TOPPS wasn't always super quick
to cater to a C & D if they already had stock on hand), so if the cloth
stickers were printed around series 4-5 they would have had Quacker on the
box. 

The first wall poster was first offered on the 6th series blue wrappers
("The Gallery, p.116). Again, if everything played out with the cloth
stickers printed during 4/5, everything is still kosher. 

The '73 posters which contain Weakies and other titles pulled AFTER the
1st wall poster (including Toadal which was slated for series 8) has a BOX
CODE of 37, so the code had not been retired. 

The 132/264 sticker layout was probably dictated by the size of the
leftover cloth stock from the '72 baseball cards which were printed on the
132/264 sheets. Since they already pretty much had the dies and layout
left over from the die cuts it was an easy adaptation for a limited test
run (why reconfigure series 2, 3, or 4?). 

Your checklist scenario is the only thing still troubling me. Although a
possible explanation is that they caught the errors early in the 1st
series run (I got my checklists from a guy who never had the cloth
stickers, but had 1st series stickers) and the remaining stock was
warehoused. When the cloth test was run, instead of re-printing the
corrected 1st series checklists they may have just gone with what they
had, possibly running out during the run and packaging some of the cloth
sticker without checklists, thus the relative scarcity of the checklists
to the stickers (I got my cloth set from a guy who didn't remember ever
having checklists). 

Unfortunately there are still missing facts that preclude a definitive
explanation. But, I am confident over time they will unfold. Until then,
it makes sense to analyze the facts we do have and keep an open dialogue.

From:  Char Boy (GREGGRANT)   8:59 am  
To:  SLAYSKOOL  

You still did not answer the question, where is the proof that cease and
desists were given before the 4th series?  

Also where is the proof that they made the poster during the 3rd series?  

These are claims I have not seen the proof of, but I want to learn, so
please enlighten me.  

From:  Truant (TMOORE33)   10:00 am  
To:  Char Boy (GREGGRANT)  
 
> You still did not answer the question, where is the proof that cease and
> desists were given before the 4th series?  

I bet he doesn't have any. What proof we do have is that no titles appear
to have been "pulled" before the 4th series due to cease & desist, so that
alone disproves what Paul is saying. If cease & desists were issued,
stickers would have been pulled. Let's look of the rare stickers before
the 4th series:

1st:

Lavirus - short printed 
Mutts - short printed 
Paul Maul - short printed 
Band-ache - short printed (never proven to have been pulled or cease &
desist issued before series 4)

2nd:

Run Tony (pulled for political reasons)

3rd:

Spit and Spill (not pulled, just had artwork changed) 
Dr Ono (short printed)
So, until proven otherwise, we have to believe that there were NO CEASE &
DESISTS sent to Topps before series 4. IOW, you are right.

From:  Char Boy (GREGGRANT)   10:04 am  
To:  Truant (TMOORE33) 

Thanks for spelling it out, one exception though, Dr Ono was pulled, there
are sheets without it.  But that doesn't mean they couldn't have reprinted
the 1st series because Dr Ono isn't really related to any of those
products, is it? 

From:  Knuckles (JEFFWEISS1)  11:05 am  
To:  Char Boy (GREGGRANT) 
 
Where's this info. coming from? 

I can remember and the cloth stickers were clearly out by the summer. I
cannot remember if the came before series 2 but certainly before series 3. 

Jeff

From:  Knuckles (JEFFWEISS1)  11:09 am  
To:  Char Boy (GREGGRANT)  

"just at the end of the 1st" is when they came out although I doubt it had
anything to do with running out of paper.  Summer of '73 1st series was
such a success that tests were made in mediums other than the regular
stickers. Cloth, posters, sew on patches etc. were all floated out as
early ideas. Only the stickers stuck ;-)

From:  Knuckles (JEFFWEISS1)  11:11 am  
To:  BANDACHES unread 

>>For what it is worth, the 5th series shipping case is dated 03/14/74 
>>Worth nothing as I had 5th series in December 1973. 
 
From:  Knuckles (JEFFWEISS1)  11:13 am  
To:  CrazyZooKeeper (CRAKOLA) 
 
>>So, how about it guys, did anybody here buy these cloth stickers when
>>they were out. 

Absolutely. As a matter of fact, I always hated them because I wasn't
smart enough to realize the red cloth pack was different from the red
sticker packs and I was always disappointed to open a pack and find cloth
instead of regular stickers. I have no recollection of the cloth box
however.
 
From:  Knuckles (JEFFWEISS1)  11:15 am  
To:  CrazyZooKeeper (CRAKOLA) 
 
Ed, 
Your dates are pretty close. We have this pretty well nailed down in
another thread. It depends on where you lived. No doubt that the NYC -
Philly corridor got everything before the rest of the country.

From:  Char Boy (GREGGRANT)   11:25 am  
To:  Knuckles (JEFFWEISS1)   
 
Okay, so definitely before series 3 since you remember that, but the only
main problem with this theory is that which Paul raises about the
checklists, the cloth checklist does seem to be more primitive,
particularly because it has a typo and the 1st series checklist
doesn't.  Could they have printed up the cloth checklists earlier and then
not used them for some reason?  Too bad we don't know the cloth checklist
code, that might expalin a lot.

Boy, this sure is a engima, whatever the right theory is, there is
something weird to account for, if it's before the 1st then we have to
account for the code discrepancy, if it's after we have to account for the
checklist discrepancy.  

From:  RATZCRACKERS  11:28 am  
To:  CrazyZooKeeper (CRAKOLA) 
 
Yes, I distinctly remember having some in my collection. Summer of
1973...I stuck a couple of them on my old Cubs baseball jacket, with my
mother's permission, of course. Everything was cool until she had to wash
it, at which time they disintegrated, leaving a gluey mess on the fabric
of the jacket. I believe we were collecting the second series at the
time... 

From:  RATZCRACKERS  11:31 am  
To:  LANDOQUAKES  
 
Bingo! You couldn't give these things away at our local 7-11. As a matter
of fact, the ones I had were purchased accidentally...I thought I was
buying regular Wackys. 

From:  Knuckles (JEFFWEISS1)  11:41 am  
To:  Char Boy (GREGGRANT)  

>>the cloth checklist does seem to be more primitive, particularly because
>>it has a typo and the 1st series checklist doesn't 

Both checklists have typos because Dessert is spelled wrong next to
Jail-O. Typos abound from Topps. I do not think this necessarily means
anything. 

I know I didn't see a cloth sticker until well into the 1st series run (I
would guess June or July). They certainly could have been produced first
and released second. Not sure if we'll ever know that for sure. 

Maybe some of the other collectors here can expound upon other Topps cloth
stickers. I remember getting cloth stickers of baseball pennants around
this time. Can anyone pinpoint the first cloth series issued by Topps?

From:  Paul Maul (WACKY1234)  12:54 pm  
To:  Knuckles (JEFFWEISS1)  
 
Another oddity in all this is: if you're honestly test-marketing 
the cloth format, how can you put the out-of-date first series 
up against the brand new 2nd or 3rd or whatever it was? 
Obviously kids will want the latest series regardless of format. 
It seems to have been a test the cloths were doomed to lose from 
the beginning. 

I would think the INTENT, at least, must have been to have the 
two first series formats out together. 

Dave 

From:  SLAYSKOOL  4:21 pm  
To:  Char Boy (GREGGRANT) 
 
>>where is the proof that cease and desists were given before the 4th
>>series? 

Come on Greg, to think not ONE company C & Ded before series 4 flies in
the face of common sense. We know Ronzoni C & Ded--the 2nd series sheet
proves that. We know by Jay's list that Band Ache, Skimpy and Quacker Oats
were C & Ded. You can bet those came in sometime during their issuance. 

Of course I don't have proof, but it all falls into line. The ONLY thing
you have to go on is the sequential order of the codes which we know there
are not one, but TWO exceptions to that rule. 

>>Also where is the proof that they made the poster during the 3rd series? 

This too is speculative, but my theory is that because there is an absence
of 3rd Series titles, it was developed before the 3rd Series was
issued. We also know the 5th Series was issued with the blue wrappers with
the poster availability. Which means stock was printed up before November
of 1973. That means the poster was developed in time to include it on the
wrapper artwork, right? Which then means that the poster was developed
sometime between April and November 1973. This fits in the timeline. 

(More on this subject later when I tackle Zookeeper's theories).

 From:  Char Boy (GREGGRANT)   4:45 pm  
To:  SLAYSKOOL unread  
 
Please don't present speculation in terms of "we know" and "this was" and
"they did" .. perhaps a bit of "I believe this way," "I speculate they
did" would be more reasonable.

By your reasoning the 1977 stickers would have to have come out before the
5th series since there are no 5th or higher stickers in that
series.  Really, your speculation about when the poster was made is
extremely weak, I don't think we can consider it as any kind of evidence
towards when the cloth came out.

As for C & D's, they didn't do them when the die-cuts were out for these
titles, so we can see they weren't that trigger happy to do it, and indeed
it may have been a few months before they started rolling in, without any
evidence to the contrary we cannot really conclude the 1st series titles
were c&d'd before the poster came out which was after the 6th series.

So this evidence doesn't mean much, this is still very much an open
question.

From:  Char Boy (GREGGRANT)   4:47 pm  
To:  Knuckles (JEFFWEISS1)  
 
> Both checklists have typos because 

Yes, but one of the typos on the cloth checklist was fixed on the 1st
series checklist, the "desert" typo was not changed.  So it makes one
think maybe the cloth was produced first.  But codes make one think the
cloth series was produced later.  We definitely need some more people to
come forward who remember buying these off the shelves, there must be more
people out there.

 
From:  Knuckles (JEFFWEISS1)  5:04 pm  
To:  Char Boy (GREGGRANT) 
 
>>We definitely need some more people to come forward who remember buying
>>these off the shelves, there must be more people out there. 

Why? 

I remember. Ratz has already chimed in and says he remembers. Most people
here weren't yet collecting in Junish of '73 so you won't get too much
recollection on the matter. Both Ratz and I have distinct memories of
mistakenly buying cloth instead of regular stickers. I think one thing you
can say for sure is that they came out prior to the color of the wrapper
changing from Red to yellow, which would have occurred circa September
(assuming 3rd series was August-October). So, if they came out prior to
September and at least two of us clearly remember how we inadvertantly
purchased them isn't that sufficient to say the cloth came out sometime
around summer of '73? 

Jeff 

From:  Char Boy (GREGGRANT)   5:17 pm  
To:  Knuckles (JEFFWEISS1) 
 
I am sure cloth stickers were for sale while the 2nd and maybe 3rd were
for sale, because I believe you and Ratz remember correctly.  BUT, we
still don't know if they were released early during the 1st series, or
even before the regular 1st, and were still available then, or if they
actually came out near the end, or after, the 1st came out.  

We also don't know when they were produced, still several mysteries to get
to the bottom of here.

From:  Truant (TMOORE33)   5:35 pm  
To:  SLAYSKOOL unread 

> to think not ONE company C & Ded before series 4 flies in the face of
> common sense. 

Don't underestimate the fact that it took companies a few months to
"catch-on" to the wacky craze and what Topps was up to. Remember, this was
the 1970's. It was not a time of fax machines and emails, these things
took a while. I think it's common sense that they *didn't* get C & D'ed
before series 4 came out (only a few months after wackys were first
released).

> Hope I didn't rant too much. 

You're improving. I actually read your entire post this time. 
 

From:  Char Boy (GREGGRANT)   6:25 pm  
To:  SLAYSKOOL unread   
 
Alright, there is no question in my mind that they were out by the end of
the 2nd series.  

But, think about this.  We know they were created in 1973 because the
codes end in a 3.  Now how long is it from the time they assign a code to
a wrapper, box, sheet, etc until the time the stickers hit the
shelves?  So at earliest we have the cloth coming out not before sometime
in February.  And the 1st series came out in March.  Maybe I'm wrong but
that just doesn't seem like enough time to create distribute test dedice
to go with the first, print them and distribute, all by March.  I think
this supports the fact that they came out later.  

BUT, still this does not explain why the checklist typo was fixed.  

BUT, think about this.  Cloth stickers are relatively rare.  If they had
been sold both before and after the regular 1st (and we know for sure they
were sold after), then presumably they were sold throughout the whole run
of the 1st, and that means there had to be a substantial number of them
because kids were buying those red packs like there's no tomorrow.  If
this was the case we'd see more of them today.  If Topps had full boxes of
them sitting around they would have shipped them all off early.  So
whenever the cloth were sold, they must have been sold only for a
relatively short time, otherwise we'd see more of them.  So the fact that
they were selling them when 2nd series packs were out means to me that
they were probably issued later than February, either just at the end of
the 1st or just after it.  

The only thing I cannot fit into all of this is why the checklist typo was
fixed...

From:  SLAYSKOOL  4:10 am
To:  Char Boy (GREGGRANT)            
                             
Here is my addendum to my theory.

FACT: The uncut tattoo sheet is dated August 1973. On it, Cheapios is
reworked and Weakies is absent on the wrapper. So it is safe to assume    
that General Mills had C & Ded before August 1973. Right?

Now, I feel the Wacky Wall poster was developed prior to General Mills' C
& D. That would put it, say July 1973 at the LATEST. That means the 2nd   
Series is on the shelves--perhaps the third. Thus, it makes sense that no
3rd Series titles are yet on the poster--because it was already developed.

Now, I believe that Skimpy, Band Ache and Quacker Oats were not on the
Wacky Wall Poster because they were C & Ded. Makes more sense for their   
omission than for say a creative choice.

If I had to make a guess, Quacker Oats was C & Ded sometime around May
1973, probably on the cusp of the 2nd Series being issued. By this time,  
boxes have already been printed up for Series 3. The box was already
developed for the 6th Series, but Topps wanted another color box for the
4th Series so they jumped on the 6th Series box and printed those up as   
well. In fact, I think boxes and wrappers were the first things printed up
so as to meet the demand for the fad. That's why you see the 5th Series   
box with a 6th Series code.

So what does this all boil down to? My whole take is that Topps would not
have developed a cloth series with titles C & Ded. also, their testing    
method was only based in Brooklyn neighborhoods. The cloth stickers were  
actually found in other cities.

Sorry...another rant.

From:  Knuckles (JEFFWEISS1)  9:58 am
To:  Char Boy (GREGGRANT)            
                             
Yes, you are right. I know that where I was buying Wackys they came out
after the 1st and before the 3rd. They may have come out before the 2nd   
and I would be inclined to believe they did just from my recollection but 
I cannot be sure of this. They definitely came out after the 1st in my   
neighborhood and as Dave suggested it wouldn't make much sense for them to
have come out after the 2nd because that would have been moving
backward. They may have been produced first but I don't know if we'll ever
be able to pinpoint to this degree of accuracy, just as we have difficulty
with the posters.
Jeff

From:  SLAYSKOOL  Mar-19 6:04 pm  
To:  Char Boy (GREGGRANT)
 
Greg, 
The error on your page is your inclusion of the word "test". The cloth 
stickers were in no shape way or form, a "test". 

Topps' M.O. was that items that were to be tested had a "T" designation 
as the first digit of the code. This is most evident in the 1979 Test 
Packs. THAT series was truly a test. 

Secondly, Topps' testing methods was pretty much to only test market the 
items in small areas, say like Brooklyn. They did this even in 1982 with 
the Wacky Can Labels. The cloth series was definitely distributed. 
They would not have gone to the extent of making boxes, wrappers, stickers 
AND a checklist just for a test. 

I think quite simply, that the cloth series was first, they found paper 
to be much cheaper than the cloth material and went with that pretty 
quickly.
 
From:  Knuckles (JEFFWEISS1)  Mar-20 11:00 am  
To:  SLAYSKOOL  
 
>> I think quite simply, that the cloth series was first, they found paper 
>> to be much cheaper than the cloth material and went with that pretty 
>> quickly 

Paul, 

I agree with what you say about "test" but not what you say here. I do not 
think the cloth was going to be first and then it was switched because of 
paper. I simply believe that after the success of 1st series stickers, Topps 
decided to expand to cloth as a supplement. This was seen with sports cards. 
One could buy an actual pack of Baseball cards or one could buy a pack of 
cloth baseball stickers. I think the cloth was just an extra money maker. 
Topps quickly found out that kids wanted the real thing and weren't nuts 
about the cloth, so it was discontinued sometime around the beginning of 
series 3. I think that's all there is to it. 

The checklist typo isn't even strange to me. It just happened and nobody 
caught it. Just like Rice A Phony was spelled different ways during the 
reprints. It was spelled incorrectly on the original 3rd checklist and 
wasn't fixed until 1979 series 2. I think that whoever typeset the cloth 
checklist made a mistake. 

Jeff